Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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Oilerlord

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I am thinking that it won't be too long before there are enough DCFC installed for this to no longer be an issue. My criteria for buying an EV has been, and remains, that DCFC (that aren't Tesla superchargers) are installed at all of the motorway service centers plus one somewhere near St Catharines, because then you can get almost anywhere in southern Ontario and a fair bit north.
Weren't you looking at a Bolt EV a while ago? The lack of DCFC wouldn't be much of a problem since you would rarely need to use them. I'm interested in the next crop of EV's coming out of GM and Kia. Hopefully we they come out with a decent sized SUV (the rest of us can afford).

I saw an ad for Soul EV leases in Washington state at $99 per month.
 

Oilerlord

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I was merely responding to a comment I found interesting. Get over it.
Wow. Holding fast, and sticking to your guns. What you find "interesting" I see as horrific, and offensive. Thank you, but I'll feel the way I feel.

I know we won't agree on everything, but that wasn't the response I expected. :eek:
 

Oilerlord

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It's nice to see more solar canopies in parking lots. That particular installation doesn't have the best orientation, but I applaud them nonetheless.
I'm just surprised it's here! Especially in a city with 1 million people but only ~1000 electric cars. Totally came out of left field. My first thought when I saw it was to hit up Tony Williams for a deal on one of his JdEMO conversions for my EV.
 

turbobrick240

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Wow. Holding fast, and sticking to your guns. What you find "interesting" I see as horrific, and offensive. Thank you, but I'll feel the way I feel.
I know we won't agree on everything, but that wasn't the response I expected. :eek:
Well, I'm hardly shocked that some members of a die hard VW community would like to rewrite the history of VW. Or forget about past atrocities. It certainly was a dark period for humanity. Anyhoo, back to the regularly scheduled programming. :)
 
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GoFaster

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Weren't you looking at a Bolt EV a while ago? The lack of DCFC wouldn't be much of a problem since you would rarely need to use them. I'm interested in the next crop of EV's coming out of GM and Kia. Hopefully we they come out with a decent sized SUV (the rest of us can afford).
I saw an ad for Soul EV leases in Washington state at $99 per month.
My previous car needed to be replaced before the Bolt actually became available, and now I'm good for the next few years. The other matter is that the Ontario government has been talking about getting DC fast chargers installed, but so far ... no action at the places that would mean the most (the motorway service centers). Why those locations weren't the first places to get DCFC installed (and it should have been a bank of them, not just one!), escapes me.
 

turbobrick240

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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Was at the Chevy dealer this weekend, found out the electric Spark was dropped. Lack of sales.

Silverado sales are up. And the average out the door prices I am told are around $50k. :eek:
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Well, they do have the Bolt now.
Spark starts at $10k, not sure what the eSpark was, but I think they were in the high teens. The Bolt starts at $37k. I don't doubt the Bolt is a superior EV in every way except its hideous looks, but the price tag places it in the area of unobtainium for a lot of people. But they couldn't sell the eSpark which WAS affordable to a greater crowd.

Not sure what to say about this, other than it just shows another data point that EVs are either not really high on a lot of consumer's considerations and they are very expensive. This of course will change, but it remains to be seen how much, how fast, and with how much gov't "influence".

They have reintroduced a mild hybrid Silverado, but I am not sure what strides were made over the old (very lame) version. I bet the take rate on those is less than 1%.
 

El Dobro

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The Spark EV was only sold in Cal, Ore and later MD (where the motors were made).
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The Spark EV was only sold in Cal, Ore and later MD (where the motors were made).

Correct, but people could buy them in those areas and bring them elsewhere. There is no law (that I am aware of) that prohibits the license and operation of such vehicles outside of areas where they were not originally sold, be it from choice or rule. Lots of TDIs in California where they were not allowed for new sale either. ;)

I do not think the local Volkswagen dealers sell eGolfs here. But I have seen one on the road here, with a Missouri plate.
 

El Dobro

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Correct, but people could buy them in those areas and bring them elsewhere. There is no law (that I am aware of) that prohibits the license and operation of such vehicles outside of areas where they were not originally sold, be it from choice or rule. Lots of TDIs in California where they were not allowed for new sale either. ;)
I do not think the local Volkswagen dealers sell eGolfs here. But I have seen one on the road here, with a Missouri plate.
Of course, but you couldn't bring it to just any Chevy dealer either, if you had a problem.;)
I may pick one up myself, my Chevy dealer sell Volts and Bolts, so they told me they wouldn't have any problem working on one, if necessary.

I've seen one eGolf here and that was at one of the Plug-in week gatherings.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Well you could, it just may not be a slam dunk for the technician to do something to it. But I would imagine any dealer could rotate the tires and change a cabin filter, and they probably all do software updates through the same system. Even our GM scan tool software has the eSpark listed.
 

bhtooefr

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IIRC, it was around $25k, and they were losing lots on each one sold... and you were driving a $10k car for your $25k.

Also, it was to the point where they would not complete the sale if the vehicle would be registered outside of CA, OR, or MD. You could buy it used, of course, but they were extremely picky about where it got registered.
 

El Dobro

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Well you could, it just may not be a slam dunk for the technician to do something to it. But I would imagine any dealer could rotate the tires and change a cabin filter, and they probably all do software updates through the same system. Even our GM scan tool software has the eSpark listed.
If you do any battery work on the GM EVs, you'll need one of these. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atxGJKG8jN0
One of the Volt techs told me it cost around $5500. Some dealers weren't interested in buying all the necessary tools and sending the techs for the training, especially if they weren't going to sell the plug-ins.
 

aja8888

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A good friend of mine bought two (2) 2017 Sparks for under $30 K out the door in the late summer. One was a gift for his granddaughter in college and one for him (he's retired). I was in his Spark last month and it's perfect for small commutes and just as a second car. He gets mid 40's MPG with it. No need to electrify this if it performs as well as it does using gasoline.
 

El Dobro

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This reminds me of the guy here in NJ that bought a RAV4 EV. I asked him if he had any problems finding a place that would work on it. Since it had Tesla guts, he went to Tesla and they told him they wanted nothing to do with it. He tried several Toyota dealerships until he finally found one that would deal with it.
 

Oilerlord

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Spark starts at $10k, not sure what the eSpark was, but I think they were in the high teens. The Bolt starts at $37k. I don't doubt the Bolt is a superior EV in every way except its hideous looks, but the price tag places it in the area of unobtainium for a lot of people. But they couldn't sell the eSpark which WAS affordable to a greater crowd.

Not sure what to say about this, other than it just shows another data point that EVs are either not really high on a lot of consumer's considerations and they are very expensive.
I almost bought a used Spark EV. Had 1800 miles on it, all the options including DCFC. $12,000. TDI guys love torque, and I'm one of them. The Spark EV had 400 lb-ft of it. Car & Driver rated it very highly, I do too.

For us, it's too small. It's the only reason I didn't buy it. You're right that the Spark EV was an EV affordable to a greater crowd. But it being cheap wasn't enough to overcome it's 80 mile range and micro size. For that matter, I don't see a lot of gasoline Sparks on the road either. Electric or not, the rest of the car still matters. There's a point where I think most people aren't willing to give up comfort & features - just to drive electric, even if it doesn't cost much. The Spark EV and Fiat 500e are great examples of that.

As for the Bolt EV being superior to the Spark EV - I don't see it that way. Sure, the Bolt has 238 miles of range, and is a little larger, but it's still a weird looking small car with terrible front seats (the Spark's were WAY better). There's just as much low-rent hard plastic inside a $37,000 Bolt as where was in that $12,000 Spark EV I was looking at. But hey, a lot of owners are able to squeeze 300 miles on a charge. Is that enough to get Joe Public to buy these in droves? So far, not so much.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I agree, the Bolts seem to be collecting dust. It would seem too the cat is out of the bag on EV resale values, so people that want them just wait for a slightly used one. Shoot, I would too.

The incentives they give on new ones still do not seem to be enough. And you still are required to finance them to get the incentives, as cash buyers don't get the same deals, for whatever reason. Why should someone (like me) who does not get a loan for a car, be forced to pay more??? I guess they want the interest to be the major moneymaker in the deal.
 

Oilerlord

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This reminds me of the guy here in NJ that bought a RAV4 EV. I asked him if he had any problems finding a place that would work on it. Since it had Tesla guts, he went to Tesla and they told him they wanted nothing to do with it. He tried several Toyota dealerships until he finally found one that would deal with it.
There were a lot of issues with RAV EV, and that's been at the back of my mind with my car.

Most of my car is essentially the same B250 as the gasoline version sold in Canada and I was able replace a wiper fluid hose (that froze) at a local Mercedes dealer - at my cost of course. No warranty outside of the USA, and there are only a select few dealerships that are trained on, and have the equipment to work on the B250e.

Like the Spark EV, the B250e has been discontinued. I'm sure that's not going to make it easier to fix any of the electric bits in my Mercedes-Tesla lovechild. Hopefully, it will continue to be as reliable as it has been so far.
 

El Dobro

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I agree, the Bolts seem to be collecting dust. It would seem too the cat is out of the bag on EV resale values, so people that want them just wait for a slightly used one. Shoot, I would too.
The incentives they give on new ones still do not seem to be enough. And you still are required to finance them to get the incentives, as cash buyers don't get the same deals, for whatever reason. Why should someone (like me) who does not get a loan for a car, be forced to pay more??? I guess they want the interest to be the major moneymaker in the deal.
https://insideevs.com/ev-sales-gain-in-october-for-us-as-chevy-bolt-ev-is-the-top-seller/
 

Oilerlord

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The incentives they give on new ones still do not seem to be enough. And you still are required to finance them to get the incentives, as cash buyers don't get the same deals, for whatever reason. Why should someone (like me) who does not get a loan for a car, be forced to pay more??? I guess they want the interest to be the major moneymaker in the deal.
From what I've seen, government incentives are the same regardless if you choose to buy or lease. Most people choose to lease however because the manufacturer inflates the residual value of the car to lower payments. I've seen $79 leases on Spark EV's. Leases on Bolt EV's are coming down too. GM sold 2987 of them last month. Sure, in terms of overall EV sales it was a "Top Seller", but really, those sales numbers are pretty disappointing. Elon Musk talked about GM selling just enough Bolts for CARB credits, so if he's right; we'll see GM limiting sales to maximize those credits:

"That’s why you shouldn’t ask like why, well, GM appears to be losing $10,000 a car on the Bolt. No, they’re not. They are making it up on CARB credits. But they get the full retail value of the CARB credit, whereas we get the wholesale value when we’re lucky. But the CARB credits are only effective at a production rate of about 20,000 to 30,000 vehicles a year. So that’s why you’ll see, mark my words, it’s not going to be any higher than that for the Chevy Bolt. That’s on order of 25,000 units a year"

And he's right. At the end of November, GM has sold 20,070 Bolt EV's this year.

https://insideevs.com/elon-musk-talks-carb-zev-credits/

I think you're absolutely right that there are guys (like me) on the sidelines that wait to buy an EV off-lease. Very few people that lease end up buying them out. Using the Spark EV as an example, why would you pay the residual $20,000 for a 3-year old car with 36,000 miles on it when a nearly new one is on a lot for under $15,000 - or when you could just lease another one for $79 per month?
 

bhtooefr

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If you have $7500 of tax liability (note that this isn't the number at the end of your 1040 that determines refund or payment required, as your withholding doesn't remove your tax liability, it just satisfies it), you'll get all $7500 of that incentive regardless of how you pay.

If you don't, you won't, unless you lease the car (not finance a purchase).
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I am not really talking about the tax side of things, but what the manufacturer is doing. And yes, leases seem to be a big thing with them. It would appear not many people actually want one outside of the warranty period. So they are a fantastic buy if you can actually use one. There are oodles of barely used EV Sparks, 500s, Leafs, and a few Focus that can be had for CHEAP. The Golfs still seem to command a higher price.

I agree about the carb credits and the politics of it all. GM will only sell as many of the Bolt as they need to in order to allow the sales of the Tahoes and Silverados (the REAL money makers) to continue.

Kind of a shame, but that is how it works. For now. Artificially abysmal sales due to politics. Of course, politics also play a role in the tax credit side of things too.

It would be interesting to see how EVs would sell if there was none of this right hand left hand shennanigans goings on behind the scenes. I bet they would not sell at all.
 

El Dobro

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It would be interesting to see how EVs would sell if there was none of this right hand left hand shennanigans goings on behind the scenes. I bet they would not sell at all.
We'll find out soon when the limits are hit.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Correct, but people could buy them in those areas and bring them elsewhere. There is no law (that I am aware of) that prohibits the license and operation of such vehicles outside of areas where they were not originally sold, be it from choice or rule. Lots of TDIs in California where they were not allowed for new sale either. ;)

I do not think the local Volkswagen dealers sell eGolfs here. But I have seen one on the road here, with a Missouri plate.
I looked at buying a new Spark from a dealer in Maryland due to some very attractive discounts. Unfortunately, GM refused to sell it to me because I wasn't a Maryland resident. They were hard-up for ZEV credits and didn't want any Spark EVs getting sold that wouldn't rake in the credits.
 

VeeDubTDI

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A good friend of mine bought two (2) 2017 Sparks for under $30 K out the door in the late summer. One was a gift for his granddaughter in college and one for him (he's retired). I was in his Spark last month and it's perfect for small commutes and just as a second car. He gets mid 40's MPG with it. No need to electrify this if it performs as well as it does using gasoline.
I don't know if I'd say that the gas Spark performs well. It gets okay fuel economy, but it's slow and boring. The EV, on the other hand, feels like a hot hatch with 140 hp and gobs of instant torque.
 

Oilerlord

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It would be interesting to see how EVs would sell if there was none of this right hand left hand shennanigans goings on behind the scenes. I bet they would not sell at all.
To be fair, there are a LOT of unsold Bolt EV's sitting on dealer lots, most of them in California. If you want a Bolt, and live in California (or another CARB state), you can probably pick one today.

The shenanigans happen to the "rest of us" that might want to buy a Bolt EV in Canada or other countries where those juicy CARB credits don't exist for GM. While there are thousands of new Bolt EV's available in California, guys in Canada are waiting months for theirs. I'm sure this allocation is by design. To Musk's point, without those credits, the Bolt loses money.
 

Oilerlord

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I don't know if I'd say that the gas Spark performs well. It gets okay fuel economy, but it's slow and boring. The EV, on the other hand, feels like a hot hatch with 140 hp and gobs of instant torque.
Car & Driver mentioned the same thing. I never drove the gasoline Spark, but the EV version was a rocket. I read a few posts where some guys stripped them down, replaced the factory eco tires with sticky rubber, and raced them on the track.

Here's the review I mentioned earlier. C&D loved the Spark EV.

https://www.caranddriver.com/compar...v-nissan-leaf-smart-fortwo-ed-comparison-test
 
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