Diesel engine compression temperature

carltruman

New member
Joined
May 3, 2009
Location
Vidalia
TDI
2006 jetta
I have a question concerning the VW Jetta diesel engines . The engine in my diesel jetta has a compression ratio of 16.1 . What's the actual compression temperature of the jetta diesel engine ? Or the temperature that's needed in the cylinder to ignite the diesel in the cylinder . Is there a formula for finding the temperature of the compression stroke of air in a diesel engine ? Could someone smarter than me please address this . Thanks .
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Oh boy ...

There is the "ideal" situation, and then there is the "real" situation. The problem (and discrepancy between the two) is the heat transfer to and from the cylinder walls.

Without any heat transfer, compression of a gas follows a set of laws that have to do with the relationship between the heat capacity at constant volume (pressure varies in a fixed volume as you change the temperature), and the heat capacity at constant temperature (pressure stays the same, but the volume is allowed to expand). The physics behind this is very involved, but suffice it to say that for air at temperatures well above the critical point (the highest temperature at which the chemical compound can exist as a liquid) and pressures well below the critical point (the pressure which corresponds to above situation) that ratio is 1.4 and it is also 1.4 for other gases consisting of two atoms. Air actually contains a small amount of molecules consisting of a single atom, but also a small amount of molecules consisting of more than two atoms, but for this purpose they can be ignored.

If you want to know the final pressure P2 following compression to a factor n and starting with pressure P1 (note: all temperatures expressed in degrees above absolute zero, i.e. degrees K):

P2 = P1 * n ^ 1.4

The 1.4 is the ratio of specific heats.

With substitution of the ideal gas law, the temperature ratio can be extracted

T2 = T1 * n ^ 0.4

Note that this uses 0.4 and not 1.4 in the equation. If you substitute the ideal gas law into both sides of this equation and do some rearranging, you can see why this is the case.

So, for 16:1 compression ratio, T2 = T1 * 3.03

Suppose ambient temperature T1 is 20 C, i.e. 293 K, then T2 = 887 K = 614 C

When translating into reality, there are some troubles with this:

#1: There is heat transfer between the air and the cylinder walls and it is significant. If you are dealing with a stone-cold engine, that heat transfer is going only one way ... out of the air and into the cylinder walls. If you are dealing with a fully warmed up engine, then heat will be going into the intake air during the intake stroke and for the initial part of the compression stroke because the cylinder walls are at a higher temperature than the intake air (i.e. T1 gets higher than ambient), but then late in the compression stroke, heat will be going from the air into the cylinder walls. At low RPM, the heat transfer is more significant than it is at high RPM because there is more time for it to happen.

#2: The quoted compression ratio for your engine is a theoretical number based on the maximum cylinder volume (piston all the way to the bottom). But ... the intake valve doesn't close exactly at bottom-dead-center. At low revs (cranking, idle) the piston will push part of the charge backwards out of the intake valve during the first part of the compression stroke, which has the effect of reducing the "effective" compression ratio. At very high revs near redline, the pressure drop across the intake port and intake valve is significant and the cylinder won't receive a full charge to begin with, which also has the effect of reducing the "effective" compression ratio.

"What temperature is required to ignite the diesel" - this is the self-ignition temperature of the fuel, and it can vary somewhat with fuel properties. It is not unreasonable to assume that it is somewhere near 500 C, though.
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
Oh boy times X

You mentioned Jetta diesel then you mentioned a diesel engine.

I know of one IDI diesel that is compression start. Other than that the IDI diesels usually use glow plugs.

The DI diesels sometimes will compression start. Some require glow plugs.

GoFaster has you going in the correct direction. There are Factors involved with each engine design.

Usually glow plug systems overcome the lack of heat. You are talking of a very complicated subject. A subject way beyond simple electronics when involved in getting the modern diesel to start and warm up.

eddif
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Hey Go, don't forget the turbocharger. It really throws a monkey wrench into using the ambient air temp and pr as T1 and P1.

You could use manifold pr and temp with the caveats you stated.

Glow plugs don't figure into this once the engine is hot.
 
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AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Compression ratios

To the OP, I did not know the TDI engine's compression ratio was that low. I was thinking it is more like 19:1. Also, I'm thinking the early TDIs have a 22:1 ratio. The MK1 1.5 litre engines had 23:1.

You don't indicate what year model your TDI is.

My Polaris ATV has a single-cylinder diesel engine that starts strickly by compression (no GP or flame in the Intake). As I recall, the manual says not to attempt starting the engine at temps below 28 degree farenheit.

Quote: #2: The quoted compression ratio for your engine is a theoretical number based on the maximum cylinder volume (piston all the way to the bottom). But ... the intake valve doesn't close exactly at bottom-dead-center. At low revs (cranking, idle) the piston will push part of the charge backwards out of the intake valve during the first part of the compression stroke, which has the effect of reducing the "effective" compression ratio. At very high revs near redline, the pressure drop across the intake port and intake valve is significant and the cylinder won't receive a full charge to begin with, which also has the effect of reducing the "effective" compression ratio. Quote

I always thought that the reason for the intake valve staying open past the bottom of the piston stroke was to allow air to continue to go in, which would be accomplished by the vacuum created and/or charge of the Turbo.

And, how does the Turbo "charge" affect the formula(s) of determining compression ratio?:confused:
 

Powder Hound

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Oct 25, 1999
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Under a Bridge, Crestview, FL, USA
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'00 Golf 4dr White 5sp, '02 Jettachero 5sp, Wife's '03 NB Platinum Gray auto(!)
The stated compression ratio will be that obtained by measuring maximum cylinder volume (piston at lowest point when valves are closed) and then again when the piston is at TDC and comparing the two volumes as a ratio.

When you compare the dynamic ratio attained, it gets significantly higher, due mostly to the heat of compression as explained above. 19.5 x 14.7 is a far lower number than the 500 psi I read when I checked my Jetta not long ago.

GoFaster's explanation is really nice. Thanks!
 

Powder Hound

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 25, 1999
Location
Under a Bridge, Crestview, FL, USA
TDI
'00 Golf 4dr White 5sp, '02 Jettachero 5sp, Wife's '03 NB Platinum Gray auto(!)
AndyBees said:
...And, how does the Turbo "charge" affect the formula(s) of determining compression ratio?:confused:
Not at all. The compression ratio is by definition a static result.

In practice, the turbocharger can affect the results from less than ambient (exhaust leak so that exhaust does not power the impeller which then restricts intake air flow) through blow up the engine due to staged turbochargers or turbocharger stacked on supercharger. That's a multi-dimensional map you're talking about, and we can only display results in 2 dimensions, with an implied 3rd dimension.

Maybe we ought just to punt at this point.
 
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